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  • nandakumar
    05-11 06:56 PM
    buddy,

    I'm already in my beloved place and with your contribution and help to Immigration Voice, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for the help.

    Remember, you are doing this to potentially ditch India and to change your nationality and are going to take oath

    "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law..............."

    My question is, hypothetically if in future if there is a war between USA and India, and hypothetically you become a US citizen, how do you conform to the oath?

    Looks like my posting hit the nerve hard, i see it from your response.

    I'm cultured enough not to bring your mother and father into the conversation.

    Good Luck

    Ask your mom why she had you with shameless Indian. US citizenship looks too far for you, sail to your beloved place and make sure you throw your passport on your way.





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  • CADude
    04-18 02:49 PM
    immigration-law.com

    04/18/2007: Further Clarification on Pending I-140 Substitution Petitions and Proposed Substitution Elimination Rule

    There are a couple of clarifications we want to make on our previous posting on this issue. The supplemental information part of a regulation is not binding, but when there is a room for interpretation on specific provisions of the rule itself, it gives a guidance to the interpretation. In this regards, for now, the correction to our previous interpretation should stand. Secondly, there is no information available about this issue in the final regulation which is expected to be released sooner or later. Whatever the final version will look, it may be prudent for the employers with the certified labor certification applications to file the substitution I-140 petitions as soon as possible before the final rule is released.
    04/18/2007: Clarification and Correction of Scope of Validity of Substitution of Approved Labor Certifications Under the Proposed Substitution Elimination Rule

    The final rule to eliminate the substitution is expected to be released in the near future. One question that raises the body heat has been the pending I-140 substitution petitions which have yet to be approved. Under the proposed regulation, there was a provision that the substitution approved at the time of enactment of the final rule will not be affected by the elimination rule. We previously interpreted the language "substitution approved" would include the approved I-140 substitution petitions and would not include the pending I-140 substitution petitions.
    We want to correct such interpretation. The substitution approved under the proposed rule appears to mean the substitution approved by the DOL and not necessarily the I-140 substitution approval. Accordingly, if the I-140 has been filed and is pending at the time enactment of the final rule, such case should not be affected by the elimination rule and remain valid. This is made clear by the following supplemental information to the proposed regulaation:
    Substitution of alien beneficiaries will be prohibited as of the effective date of a final rule resulting from this NPRM and that prohibition will apply to all pending permanent labor certification applications and to approved certifications not yet filed with DHS, whether the application was filed under the prior or current regulation. This regulatory change would not affect substitutions approved prior to the final rule's effective date.
    We stand corrected on this change.





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  • immiuser123
    07-24 07:00 PM
    a) Now you can pay for 80% of the list you mentioned using Internet and e-seva kendras

    b) With Right For Information act you can drag people to thier knees if someone asks for bribe.

    d) You can have to see the move Die Hard 4

    e & f) what about the products here from China

    g) Well it depends on the kids


    Its not the question of economy alone. When deciding to go back. Its a question about convenience.

    a) I don't want to stand in line to pay my Electric/Telephone/House Tax/Income Tax/Train Ticket/Air Ticket/Bus Ticket/Children Admission-donations/Petrol Line/LP Gas Line/Restaurant Line/Chola Bhatura Line/Samosa Line/RTO Office line/Registration line/License Line/Stock Buy line/Stock Sell Line/Bank Deposit Line/Bank Draft Line/Fixed Deposit Line/Kisaan Vikas Patra Line/Registered/Speed post Line/Blue Dart Line/Company registration line/College admission line/College fee line/University degree line/Interview Line/Booking a Car line/Beer Whisky Line/Canteen Line.

    Half the country stands in line, the other half manages the line. Neither has any civic sense.

    b) I don't want to bribe babus who manage above lines to get ahead in line.

    d) I don't want power failures/cooler failures/ac failures/broken roads/or other catastrophic system failures.

    e) I dont want fake or mixed eating oil / flour / milk / cheese / butter / peppers / lentils / rice

    f) I don't want dangerous chemical fertilizers in my produce (slow killers - massive kidney failure rate in India for past 10 years)

    g) I don't want to teach my children dishonesty and tricks of survival/street smartness (in ref to corruption in India) which don't add any value to their personality.

    h) The only reason I would wanna go back is for my immediate family and friends. Thats the only thing I miss when it comes to India.

    I wouldn't go back and I believe even MK Gandhi himself would'nt leave from Africa for India in todays times.

    Also Its the enemy within (corruption) which can cause great harm and we have that kind of enemy now. You can never ever change the attitudes which people carry in India without another revolution.

    I am sure I can come up with a huge list of positives too, They will sound very good and will give me a great feeling of fake National Pride.

    Now go ahead and kill me for saying all the above.!!





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  • mbawa2574
    02-15 04:38 PM
    Employers hire only based on talent, ROW people must have less marketable skills or not want to leave their countries and we need to teach the US on capitalist principles.
    You are absolutely right, you didn't miss my point, you completely lost touch with reality.
    People who keep asking that we just stop the discussion, tell me how we can focus on the issues with people telling us there r more of them here because they are smarter and more marketable. Is this their idea of how to bring us together?

    I will say we are one. We can a fair system which allows skills to be a deciding cretaria for EB immigration not the country of origin. If you ask me I will say there should be no cap on total number of EB Immg. visas and no country of birth cap. You want equality so stop supporting discrimination first.



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  • garybanz
    12-14 05:32 PM
    Guys,
    I think we have spent enough time discussing this, please respond to this post if you are willing to share the cost of taking this discussion to a top Constitutional attorney. (just the cost of initial discussion...not the actual case)

    Also if some one can point me in the right direction on finding the right attorney for this question then I'll really appreciate it.

    Thanks.





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  • ivar
    06-15 12:05 PM
    For most of the ppl with hateful comments, Reality sucks and bites back. I agree with dilip and unfortunately, among billions voices and opinions dont matter. Just brutal personal attacks.

    That said. We cant stop the outsourcing and dumping. Today is biilions from India and china and tomorrow rest of billions from rest of world (like Africa and rest).

    If you dont have any proper counter argument, dont post. Period, dont stoop to personal attack.(race,caste,place and commutiy and alma mater).

    Grow up folks.


    Dilips post is fine only in parts but most of it is totally crap. He says his living standard has gone down because of L1s and H1bs and herds people coming from india, Dude you need to understand that this recession has not been caused by H1b and L1s or other IT workers coming to US, its because of the real estate boom and foolishness of american people who believed that real estate prices will keep on rising to INFINITY.. i don't have to explain how this recession started i hope majority of the people knows about it.. so stop blaming IT workforce for your living standard.. another example.. just seen what happened to GM and chrysler.. they failed to understand the market for small cars and fuel efficient cars.. instead they produced gas guzzlers like hummers.. so do you think they have the brightest minds. We are in this deep shit because of the situations created by americans for themselves and now they want to blame it on legal immigrants for there wrong decisions..

    I believe in destiny or lucky whatever they call it.. its not always that brightest get their GC. I wished i was that bright and intelligent person to predict July 07 fiasco but unfortunately i quit my company in Mar 07.. and i know some people who used subsititued labor in July 07 have their EADs with them. Don't think just by getting a GC or citizenship will certify that your the brightest of all still waiting in the GC queue. I am not sure how many people believe in luck... but i do. I don't matter how bright you are and how hard you work you need some luck also..

    Thanks



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  • ramus
    07-03 04:23 PM
    Thanks...


    Hi all,

    Regarding the recent goofup by USCIS, please rate this story

    http://digg.com/politics/No_July_4th_Celebrations_for_Highly_Skilled_Future _Americans/who

    if this receives more than 100 users rating for the story in next 5-10 hours - it would be displayed on the first page. Digg.com is read by hundreds of thousands of web users and there is high chance of getting picked by main stream media.

    Note that you ll have to signup as digg.com member to rate it - it ll just take 30 secs of your time.

    Sorry I wasn't able to submit the official IV prlog.com url since it is not accepted by Digg.

    thanks.





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  • eb2waiter
    05-09 05:01 PM
    for those in US GC and thinking of applying to canadian pr...

    DONT DO IT !!!

    You just end up spending around 3k-6k for you and your dependants, and it will go unused since you are waiting for US GC.

    the best way for canadian shit is to go back to India when you are sure you will not get the US GC. You can then think of canadian PR from India.

    The canadian government just takes your money and you dont get jobs easily. Most of the jobs are for people with job experience "INSIDE CANADA".

    India is a good place to shit too. Your daily toilet does not HAVE to be in some other country if the restrooms in US are closed forever.

    ---DISCLAIMER: ABOVE ARE MY VIEWS ONLY AND MAY BE FALSE---



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  • nixstor
    09-23 02:03 AM
    This is not fair and good idea. what about people waiting in line for years and invested their money elsewhere because of this green card delays or those who do not have enough money and job in this market situation. All of the sudden you are brining this idea. This is not fair. This is kind of buying green card. There is a investment based green card category available for that. I request you to go through that channel if you are rich. Not all employment based green card seekers are rich. Please keep that in mind.

    thanks,
    aps


    Did it occur for a single moment that if some one gets out of the line, the line gets shorter? F Y I, This is NOT about me. This is about every one here. I did not dream of this situation which directly favors some one today. Simply, Not many folks knew it was going to be this bad. Folks who knew, kept quiet telling people that its NOT that bad. There is NOT going to be a single solution that benefits every one involved here. Let it be recapture, country limits or advanced degree exemption. Choice is (y)ours. We can decide to be the frogs in the well and pull the next frog down or we can work on making this pitch which can be palatable to sensible people, who understand the magnanimity of the situation





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  • sk2006
    08-15 07:14 PM
    I completely agree with you that we should never forget our roots or our motherland. India is far better than US when it comes to family values and many other things. However, this story has nothing to do about standing up for our own country/motherland. Every person who has a common name with terrorist names has had troubles at POE since 9/11. So who cares if he is SRK or anyone for that matter. When Colin Powell was the chief of security under Bush administration he had to go through airport security just like any other common person. The TSA here in US treats everyone the same. Do you think ministers or celebrities in India follow any security procedures ? Every now and then you hear of ministers and celebrities involved in smuggling scandals.
    There are good and bad things about every nation. IMHO, security procedures in US are the far better than India and apply the same way to everyone unlike in India. If you are so concerned about standing up for your motherland, what are you doing in the US ? Should I be calling you a traitor ? My point is, this case of SRK has nothing to do with loyality to motherland or racism. It is an unfortunate aftermath of 9/11 and we all know its been happening at POE.

    I think this is a very good post.
    To add to this:
    This incident has nothing to do with India. It just happened that SRK was from India.
    After 9/11 we all know security measures are tight and rightly so.

    For them it does not matter if it is
    1. SR Khan who works in movies or
    2. XYZ Khan who is a computer programmer or a cab driver.

    If the name flashes in the computers they do the required checks.

    Do you feel people with Muslim sounding names are targeted more?
    No wonder, it is likely. DO NOT Blame USA TSA for that. Blame Osama Bin Laden for putting innocent Muslims through this.



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  • ItIsNotFunny
    06-15 09:33 AM
    To be honest, I do agree that the US needs qualified people with skillsets. The real question is "Are the people from the desi consulting companies the real qualified lot ? " Just to get my background details out of the way. I am a new member, from India ofcourse, and I have recently applied for my citizenship. Now with this huge deluge of immigrants, especially from the desi consulting companies, I feel that my quality of life is getting adversely impacted. Do not rush to conclusions that I am anti Indian or anti immigrant. 12 years back when I first got my H1 visa, the requirements to qualify were strict. Staffing companies to a decent extent followed rules and tried to get the best and the brightest. Once the dot com boom started, people from all walks of life entered IT. This was true of not just the Indians but also of people in the US. Soon after the bust, the value proposition from these staffing companies was simply low cost. This is not to blame the staffing companies. They behaved in an economically rational way.

    Consider this scenario. If you run a consulting company, wouldn't you try to maximize your profits by staffing people in projects at the least cost ? This is econmically rational. You wouldn't worry much about the quality of the deliverables and all you would care is to dump as many bodies as possible at the client site or offshore and get the maximum bang for the buck.

    In this scenario, how is it feasible to expect immigrational justice when the bodies themselves dont provide exceptional talent and skills but simply offer low cost ? Now you would be tempted to bring in the analogous case of illegal low skilled immigrants. Remember they are just that - low skilled workers. They dont "steal" the jobs of high skilled workers. But this dumping of IT workforce has completely brought down the standard of living of the IT workers here. To be honest, those who get green cards today would feel the same way five years from now when the next wave of so called "skilled IT immigrants" offer even lower wages and destroy the quality of life.

    In summary, this retrogression is good in a way. The truly best and the brightest would still be employed until their turn for adjournment comes in. Only the weak are currently scared of the delays. I went through the same torrid GC phase after the tech meltdown in 2001. I was not worried of my job then but many people whom I knew got clobbered and were forced to leave. This is the darwinian flush and it will take its toll. Trust me this the bitter truth. If you people still consider that all the people on H1/L1 are part of the best and the brightest, they are WRONG. Only a small % (probably 20%) are the true best and the brightest and a good 50% will be flushed out. Sorry to say this and hey give me the red dots.

    Just because you got lucky and got your GC sooner doesn't mean others are idiot.





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  • apnair2002
    04-29 09:26 AM
    04/29/2007: Elimination of Substitution of Aliens for the Certified Labor Certification Applications
    As we stated earlier, the OMB had 90 days to make a decision on this DOL Final Rule. It was submitted on 01/26/2007 and the OMB cleared on 04/27/2007, just immediately prior to expiration of 90 days.
    This final rule will not go into effect until it is published by the DOL in the federal register. Record reflects that this final rule will not be published in the federal register, Monday, 04/30/2007. We have yet to see what changes to the proposed version of the rule the DOL made in the final rule. However, it is certain that this rule will not go into effect on Monday, 04/30/2007, and there may still be some actions the employers can make before it is published in the federal register.
    Pending Labor Certification Cases: PERM rule does not allow any amendments and no substitution of alien beneficiary available until the PERM application is certified. By the time PERM is approved, it may be too late to initiate the substitution. However, the cases which are pending at the BECs are different. The beneficiaries can be substituted inasmuch as the job order and the BEC supervised recruitment has yet to be initiated. At this time, the amendment of the BEC application does not require a paper request and e-mail or even phone call request followed by fax will work to substitute the alien. Under the final rule which will go into effect soon, the labor certification applications at the stage of DOL can survive only if the substitution has been approved at the time of release of the final rule. Accordingly, the employers can contact the BECs tomorrow, Monday, to amend the pending ETA 705 and alien beneficiary over the phone, via e-mail, followed by the phone calls and fax or straightforwardedly via fax. CAVEAT: If substitution is denied and original beneficiary ETA 750 is denied for the reason that there is no beneficiary, the employer can lose everything!!
    Certified Labor Certification Cases: These cases will not be able to survive unless the I-140 petition is quickly filed on Monday substituting the alien beneficiary. The earliest filing date will be "Tuesday" since overnight delivery has to reach the Service Centers. Still worth trying. Once it is "filed," it will be safe. There remain a host of issues which will have to be resolved by the USCIS as to the consequences of the denial of these substitution I-140 petitions on issues other than alien beneficiaries qualifications such as the employer's financial ability to pay the proffered wage, etc. Obviously, the denial becomes a "final" action, the cases on appeal to the AAO will continue to remain outside the parameter of the elimination rule. Another question is the effect of motion to reopen of denial of substitution I-140 petitions. There is some chance that the USCIS may decide that once the motion is granted and I-140 petition is approved, the DOL's final rule of elimination of substitution will not affect the case. What if the employer refiles the substitution I-140 petitions? The chances of these cases will remail slim or nil. Since it will be considred a "new" filing of substitution I-140 petition, the USCIS may rule that such filing will be subject to the DOL's substitution elimination final rule. There will be other issues which fall under the jurisdiction of the USCIS rather than DOL as related to the interpretation of the substitution I-140 petitions. The USCIS is scheduled to initiate this rule making process sooner or later. Please stay tuned.
    Impact on the Retention of Priority Date: The rule of retention of priority date is governed not by the DOL but by the USCIS. Under the USCIS rule, the priority date of the labor certification application is not retained until I-140 petition is "approved." Accordingly, if the decision of the denial of the substitution I-140 becomes final on appeal, the substituting alien will not be able to retain the priority. Neither the original beneficiary can retain the priority date unless the alien beneficiary substition I-140 petition was filed after the I-140 had been approved for the original beneficiary.
    Impact on the 7th-Year H-1B Extension: Until the substitution I-140 is denied and becomes final on appeal, the substitutiing alien will be able to continuously extend the H-1B status in one-year increment, but the substituted alien will not be able to extend the 7th-year H-1B status based on the substituted labor certification application. Once the decision of denial becomes final, the substituting alien will not be able to extend the H-1B status after that time, but the validity of the approved 7th-year H-1B status will remain valid until the expiration date.
    Impact on the 245(i) Benefits: Grandfathering of the 245(i) benefits cannot be transferred to other aliens and substituting aliens cannot take over the 245(i) benefits unless the substitution was filed before April 30, 2001. Once the grandfathering is attached, it remains valid unless "not approveable at the time of labor certification application filing" is found. Accordingly, the denial of substitution I-140 petition on behalf of the substituting alien will have no affect on the original beneficiary's retention of the 245(i) benefits.
    Well, let's wait and see the text of the soon-to-be published final rule.



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  • bfadlia
    02-15 05:07 PM
    I am not saying that there are more Chinese and Indians here. I am saying that application process is not fair since it does not give everyone a fair shot.

    I am saying if more highly skilled Chinese and Indians apply for the same job,no cap should prevent them from immigration. If there FIFO ( First In and First Out), how will ROW suffer ? Can you explain ?

    You are not saying there are more chinese and indians here, so that means what? that there are not more chinese and indians here?
    As you said half the world population is indian or chinese and I'm saying this, rather than pure skill, is why there are more of them here. This is why I repeatedly protest your reference to only skills and brightness as the factor for the non balanced EB population.
    If the world population is the reference, the US would have to take half of its immigrants from 2 countries, they clearly don't want that so they conciously set that rule.. u need them to change the rule u need to give them a reason that's useful for them not for you.





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  • grupak
    02-13 12:24 PM
    For those who do not see the unfairness because of country of origin, here is a scenario:

    Your colleague and friend work in the same company as you, have similar qualification. Both of you apply for the GC around the same time, you get it years maybe decade sooner and can move onto a higher position, maybe better job. Your friend is still stuck at the same position even though he has been a good worker and should have been promoted in an ideal situation.

    We are here not because of our country of origin but because of our employment. So, lets not get into 'us' and 'them'. We are all skilled-employees, and that's what IV represents.

    A system that holds back employees for years because of country of origin instead of job performance is clearly broken. IV is fighting to fix it.

    (1) Increasing the visa numbers and (2) removing/increasing cap is only the solution.



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  • jungalee43
    12-17 08:20 AM
    Thanks for the update. No need to reveal any more details. At least I know the e-mails that I sent made their way to some one who matters.

    We have taken these ideas to executive and legislative branches of the government. Our suggestions/proposals have been taken up at the top most level. This has been discussed more than few times with favorable consideration. Without being able to share the specifics, we have received extremely positive feedback for our suggestions. Specific events have to occur before this and similar ideas could possibly be considered in the new administration.

    Thanks,





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  • unseenguy
    06-11 06:20 PM
    To be honest, I do agree that the US needs qualified people with skillsets. The real question is "Are the people from the desi consulting companies the real qualified lot ? " Just to get my background details out of the way. I am a new member, from India ofcourse, and I have recently applied for my citizenship. Now with this huge deluge of immigrants, especially from the desi consulting companies, I feel that my quality of life is getting adversely impacted. Do not rush to conclusions that I am anti Indian or anti immigrant. 12 years back when I first got my H1 visa, the requirements to qualify were strict. Staffing companies to a decent extent followed rules and tried to get the best and the brightest. Once the dot com boom started, people from all walks of life entered IT. This was true of not just the Indians but also of people in the US. Soon after the bust, the value proposition from these staffing companies was simply low cost. This is not to blame the staffing companies. They behaved in an economically rational way.

    Consider this scenario. If you run a consulting company, wouldn't you try to maximize your profits by staffing people in projects at the least cost ? This is econmically rational. You wouldn't worry much about the quality of the deliverables and all you would care is to dump as many bodies as possible at the client site or offshore and get the maximum bang for the buck.

    In this scenario, how is it feasible to expect immigrational justice when the bodies themselves dont provide exceptional talent and skills but simply offer low cost ? Now you would be tempted to bring in the analogous case of illegal low skilled immigrants. Remember they are just that - low skilled workers. They dont "steal" the jobs of high skilled workers. But this dumping of IT workforce has completely brought down the standard of living of the IT workers here. To be honest, those who get green cards today would feel the same way five years from now when the next wave of so called "skilled IT immigrants" offer even lower wages and destroy the quality of life.

    In summary, this retrogression is good in a way. The truly best and the brightest would still be employed until their turn for adjournment comes in. Only the weak are currently scared of the delays. I went through the same torrid GC phase after the tech meltdown in 2001. I was not worried of my job then but many people whom I knew got clobbered and were forced to leave. This is the darwinian flush and it will take its toll. Trust me this the bitter truth. If you people still consider that all the people on H1/L1 are part of the best and the brightest, they are WRONG. Only a small % (probably 20%) are the true best and the brightest and a good 50% will be flushed out. Sorry to say this and hey give me the red dots.

    With this kind of attitude, I wonder what fresh ideas or "bright" ideas you bring to the table and how qualified you are to say this. Enjoy your LUCK and thats it. You are no more qualified.



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  • gcfordesi
    08-15 07:39 PM
    I know its not easy or possible in USA to get a Immigration officer to make some scene deliberately at airport . Here is what i observed .
    He was in CA a month back june/july for his movie shoot nothing popped that time.
    But he signed a 100 crore INR deal with FOX for his Forth coming movie My Name is Khan i think couple of weeks back dose it tell something ?
    So with this incident he is on Top 10 news in CNN today - Btw this news was at number 7 few hours back and now number 2.
    Nice way to create awareness of Shah Rukh Khan and the Movie.

    Just my 2 cents ....

    1. 1 When an insect sting turns fatal
    2. 2 Bollywood star detained at airport
    3. 3 Tropical Storm Ana forms
    4. 4 Britain seizes control of islands
    5. 5 Bob Dylan a complete unknown?
    6. 6 Australian granted right to die
    7. 7 Lockheed Fire scorches 6,800 acres
    8. 8 Run 135 miles across Death Valley?
    9. 9 Arctic Sea 'ransom demanded'
    10. 10 Missing boy last seen near car





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  • sachug22
    09-17 10:57 AM
    Do you have any data to back your claim? I beleive there are more EB2 China numbers than India. I remember seeing some data a while back where Indian EB2 & Eb3 ratio was close to 50% where as China it was 80% EB2 to 20% EB3. Which makes me think there are more EB2 china than india.

    Read this quote from Ron Gotcher, assuming that he is getting the data from CIS sources for EB2 ratio between India/China is 2.5 : 1

    Immigration Information Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Collaboration on visa quota data/analysis (http://www.immigration-information.com/forums/33180-post56.html)





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  • Rb_newsletter
    01-18 08:49 PM
    Still Desi companies are not following Labor laws.
    I know a company in OHIO still exploiting H1Bs......but payroll being generated....


    Hmmmmmm......USCIS this is not enough.

    If you know a company report it to USCIS directly or post the details here, we will report them to USCIS. By posting this kind of annonymous, baseless complaints in forums, you are making genuine H1s look like bad.

    Everywhere there are bad elements. History showed that there were corrupt senators/congress man. So do we have to penalize every senator and congressman? Should we shut the doors of the legislative assemblies and stop the elections?

    People choose to work for consulting company, because no law said it is illegal. People choose to work in consulting, because we can meet different people and learn different verticals. And in IT, consulting is the main business model. Even if the application is developed in-house, the department that uses the software is called internal customer. If we can work for internal customer legally, whats wrong in working for external customer.

    No business can evolve without customers. If IT consulting has grown up to this level, that means businesses welcomed consulting.





    msp1976
    02-18 10:12 PM
    I understand that there is concern about people from visitor visa category (Tourist B1 B2)would be filing for green cards and that shall cause the retrogression to be perpetual...a few adjustments to the applicable statute can rectify that...





    JunRN
    05-29 11:47 AM
    3.2K visas for EB2I includes all applicants. So regardless of what type of processing, the last person to get his GC is 19 years from now, correct?

    Yeah, but your 60k only includes AOS, not CP, right?



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